Is That Really Necessary?
By craftcatcher
@craftcatcher (3699)
United States
December 2, 2008 2:05pm CST
Few people understand what a Pantheist is and it would take entirely too much space here on myLot to thoroughly explain. So most of my explanations are as short as I can make them and not very detailed. One detail that I occasionally bring up is the fact that I have and still do study (not just generally read about but actually study) a wide variety of religious, metaphysical and philosophical beliefs, simply because it is a continuing interest which I enjoy. It took me more than 20 yrs of such studies, visiting a wide variety of churches, temples, seminars etc., interviews with hundreds of people, and literally thousands of text, books and videos, to come to where I am today. As a result I have become happier, calmer, more tolerant and more open-minded than I ever have been. My personal friends and aquaintances include, Christians, Hindus, Atheists, Buddhists, Satanists, Witches and a wide variety of Pagans/NeoPagans just to name a few. I discriminate against no one.
I am an extremely open minded person and though I may not believe what others believe I have never condemned, name called, insulted or otherwise tried to change anyone's mind about their personal beliefs or lack thereof. When answering posts in the "Religion" category or talking to people in person I usually calmly and succinctly (occasionally sarcastically) state my opinion and leave it at that. If it is obvious that someone is dead set against hearing my opinion, so be it. I don't have a problem with that either.
I have been following my personal path now for approximately 10 yrs and in that time NO ONE has ever had a bad word to say to me about it.... until recently. In the last several weeks for reasons I cannot understand I have been called rather rude names, pitied, called a liar, insulted, snubbed, sneared at and even had an attempted conversion. Before you go looking through my profile for my "recent activities" some of this has not occured on myLot but in person and on another site. I can honestly say that this has not hurt my feelings, in fact I understand human nature well enough to find it a bit humorous, but this behavior has had me doing something that I haven't felt the need to do before.. defend myself! Frankly I don't like it much. So I've come to the conclusion that any further attacks will be ignored with a smile on my face or a simple statement of opinion in return.. again with a smile on my face.
In all my 20 yrs of studies I have never come across a text or sacred book which states that rude behavior is acceptable. Do you feel it is ever acceptable to call people of a different belief or philosophy rude names or condemn them simply because of that difference? I know a few here on myLot have dealt with this type of situation but I'd love to hear your thoughts and personal experience on this. I'd appreciate it if we could keep it as respectful as possible.
8 people like this
18 responses
@polachicago (18716)
• United States
3 Dec 08
Tell me more. I have learn the hard way to stay away from all religion and political discussions on Mylot. Some people are so obsessed with religion and politics, they can be very rude and mad, willing to chase you an every discussion you respond to.
We are dealing here with some people with zero tolerance to different opinion.
HUGS
2 people like this
@KaMlBob (786)
• United States
3 Dec 08
Craftcatcher is obviously a developed spiritually sound person, I too would prefer to learn from her. It's nice to know that there are people out there that do not judge. You're so right when certain topics re: religion and politics are discussed, people become so agressive.
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
4 Dec 08
Hi Pola! Politics and religion are two subjects where some people don't want to talk they want to fight. Like you said, zero tolerance. They can go from a sweet, kind, caring individual to a hateful, irrational, stalker in seconds. They're right you're wrong and they cannot see it any other way. Such a shame too. It's really not that difficult to state your point of view without getting rude and angry. Especially in writing where you can stop and read what you wrote before posting it. Plenty of time to think about it and calm down first. So few actually do that. I told someone else I may change my study focus from philosophy to psychology. This is the perfect place to study human nature!
HUGS!
HUGS!
@KaMlBob (786)
• United States
3 Dec 08
If you believe in a Pantheist way, then you a working to be the best person you can be. That is awesome. I also think that there is a 'higher power' everywhere. To me you sound very spiritual and that, for me, can only be admired.
Or maybe I am just totally off! :)
The discussion sounded interesting to me.
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
4 Dec 08
Hi KaM! Thanks so much for the kind words. Nope you're not totally off! I see everything in the Universe (including us) as connected and part of the Universe as a whole. Understanding that connection scientifically and empirically is what is easiest to equate with spirituality. The Universe as a whole, everything in it from subatomic particles to humans to the fabric of spacetime is what I equate with God. I don't like using the terms "spirituality" or "God" because they both tend to be understood by the majority of people as supernatural and separate from us. Since I see everything as natural and connected I use the terms "connection" and "Universe" instead. In my view there is nothing more important than bettering humankind in every way, learning as much as possible then spreading that knowledge so that everyone can better know the Universe. I classify my beliefs as more of a philosophy rather than a religion.
That's in a very small nutshell so I hope it made some kind of sense! 
I see everything in the Universe (including us) as connected and part of the Universe as a whole. Understanding that connection scientifically and empirically is what is easiest to equate with spirituality. The Universe as a whole, everything in it from subatomic particles to humans to the fabric of spacetime is what I equate with God. I don't like using the terms "spirituality" or "God" because they both tend to be understood by the majority of people as supernatural and separate from us. Since I see everything as natural and connected I use the terms "connection" and "Universe" instead. In my view there is nothing more important than bettering humankind in every way, learning as much as possible then spreading that knowledge so that everyone can better know the Universe. I classify my beliefs as more of a philosophy rather than a religion.
That's in a very small nutshell so I hope it made some kind of sense! 1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
5 Dec 08
Example is the best way for people to see exactly who you are and what you are all about.
@irisheyes (4370)
• United States
4 Dec 08
I don't know if this is in the same league or not. But about a year or so ago on Mylot, I found myself constantly defending Catholicism (I'm Roman Catholic.) What I realized when I'd calmed down was the things that were annoying me were not the actual transgressions of the church but the ingorance that's been spread and the total complete untruths. If you're going to criticize something, at least get your facts straight. (eg. The immaculate Conception has nothing to do with a virgin birth etc). The truth is most of the criticism was coming from people who could not accept that THE DAVINCI CODE was a work of fiction.
Anyway, I have only a general idea of Pantheism but the sort of people who are apt to criticize you probably have no idea what it means, are threatened by the word itself and can't wait to start the ignorant rumors. Just be grateful that Dan Brown hasn't written a book on Pantheism - YET. LOL
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
5 Dec 08
Misconceptions, half-truths, lies, rumors and urban legends are the bane of my existence. I find that most people like their life that way.. which fairly blows me away! Evidently any kind of truth is not interesting enough so the more stuff you can make up the better. I'm glad I live in the real world!
The Da Vinci Code raised a lot of eyebrows. I have a good friend who is an ordained Christian Minister and since I am an ordained Non-Christian Minister we have some great discussions! I had told him in passing one time that I had just read the Da Vinci Code. He asked me what I thought of it and if he should read it, or would it go against his Christian beliefs. I had to inform him that it was complete fiction and simply brought up some interesting though completely unproveable theories. No different than reading a murder mystery with a surprise ending. He was actually relieved because his wife had been bugging him for weeks to buy her the book. She wanted to read it but he wouldn't buy it until he knew someone who read it and could explain what all the hubbub was about!
I thought hey, Dan Brown did a great marketing job with that one! I've read several of his books and they all tend to be a bit overblown but bring up interesting ideas, but he had a lot of people completely buffaloed with Da Vinci Code! I didn't know whether to applaud him or smack him.
The Da Vinci Code raised a lot of eyebrows. I have a good friend who is an ordained Christian Minister and since I am an ordained Non-Christian Minister we have some great discussions! I had told him in passing one time that I had just read the Da Vinci Code. He asked me what I thought of it and if he should read it, or would it go against his Christian beliefs. I had to inform him that it was complete fiction and simply brought up some interesting though completely unproveable theories. No different than reading a murder mystery with a surprise ending. He was actually relieved because his wife had been bugging him for weeks to buy her the book. She wanted to read it but he wouldn't buy it until he knew someone who read it and could explain what all the hubbub was about!
I thought hey, Dan Brown did a great marketing job with that one! I've read several of his books and they all tend to be a bit overblown but bring up interesting ideas, but he had a lot of people completely buffaloed with Da Vinci Code! I didn't know whether to applaud him or smack him. 
@drannhh (15219)
• United States
2 Dec 08
It would be very nice if everyone who claims to follow a spiritual path were open minded and actually followed the tenets of their own belief system, but sadly, many do not and sometimes those who are most zealous know the least about the history of their own belief system/s.
One just has to consider the source and realize that those who have nothing better to do than to berate those they perceive as "different" from themselves are pitiable indeed. That does not mean we have to be friends with them, however. Not too many people in the world have studied anything as long as 20 years. Some are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past, some are not.
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
2 Dec 08
Hi Ann! It is sad that many do not practice what they preach and instead they practice what they pick and choose. I definitely agree that if people seriously read the history of their own beliefs back to their origins.. whoa what a rude awakening some would have indeed! I suppose the best we can hope for is that humans are capable of learning if they choose to do so. Thanks so much for your comments Ann, they are always welcome!
@ladynetz (968)
• Canada
3 Dec 08
I understand you and admire you.
I have the same feelings.I try to understand everyone, put myself in their shoes.
But from time to time someone is rude to you with no real cause. And it hurts.
I'm always ready to make a compromise, but when it gets out of every limit, I just get back, being rude too.And then I'm sorry...and feel bad. Me, not the person.
Is this strange or what?
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
4 Dec 08
Hi ladynetz! Thank you for your comments. It is very admirable that you try compromise first. But we are human after all and when we feel like we're being attacked the adrenaline starts flowing and it is very natural to defend ourselves. Once the adrenaline wears off we get back to our normal selves and can sometimes regret something we said or did. The best thing we can do is analyze our words and actions and try to do better in the future. That is also one thing that makes us uniquely human. We can learn.
@hibiscus_mel (719)
• United States
3 Dec 08
I truly appreciate your understanding of uniqueness. I am a respecter of persons no matter what they believe in life for as long as they don't step or hurt others I am but fine with that. I do have met people who believe they have the perfect religion and their mind is closed with the rest period. How would you expect to be respected if you don't respect others? It is here on the internet where we will all meet different kinds of people. It is the window of the world, so whatever happens I'm sure your calmness and understanding will give you positive advantage from the rest.;-)
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
4 Dec 08
Hi Mel! I appreciate the kind words and I'm glad to see that you also have respect for your fellow human beings. The internet really has become a window on the world and in the years to come I truely believe that there will be better understanding between peoples of different religions and cultures. Knowledge is never a bad thing.
@GardenGerty (160665)
• United States
3 Dec 08
I do not really have any personal experience to relate. I am a Christian, and have seen Christians behave as fools. I do not know any faith or religion that teaches rudeness. I may not agree with what you believe, but I sure will not get you to listen to me if I am rude to you, now will I ?
@KaMlBob (786)
• United States
3 Dec 08
To me, it all boils down to spiritual priciples, which I try to live by. There are so many 'religious' people that do not possess spitirtual principals!
I am not perfect by a long shot, I treat people as I would like to be treated, whether they deserve it or not. I am good at 'turning the other cheek'. Not for abuse, but just for the sake of avoiding a conflict.
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
3 Dec 08
Well now that makes perfect sense to me too. It's very hard to understand the point of any discussion when the person is spitting rude names in your face. That goes double when you're supposed to be speaking your views on a loving, compassionate God. Makes me scratch my head sometimes and say hmmmmmmm? 
Thanks for your comment Gerty, I appreciate it!
Thanks for your comment Gerty, I appreciate it!
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
3 Dec 08
I am with you we are a group of people come together witha ll kinds of religion here. and veiws on it.
I really dont know what I cll me for I beleive in a creator like the Indians and the blessing way.
. The other day I had responded to a post about kids not knowing what the holidays really mean and that soon all would be dropped ot something to that affect and I responded Not in my house. I got a comeback not the poster that I was and idiot.
I laughed and passed on left no comment.
sure!@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
3 Dec 08
Hi my friend. Yep it seems like the word idiot has been making the rounds lately. I did the same thing, just laughed and moved on. So what do you say Lakota want to join me in being a peaceful, accepting, tolerant, caring idiot? .
.
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
2 Dec 08
I don't either y.. seems a bit childish and immature doesn't it? Thanks for stopping by my discussion. Your comments are always welcome.
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
3 Dec 08
It does make me wonder sometimes how people can call themselves followers of benevolent, forgiving, loving God, then in the next breath call someone an idiot. I would be better for them, in my opinion, to become an example for their religion rather than making themselves and other followers look bad. If you want anyone to take you seriously anyway.
1 person likes this
@teapotmommommerced (10359)
• United States
14 Dec 08
My goodness I did not realize this was going on my friend. I think people tend to ridicule others beliefs because they do not understand them. I try not to attack others here or in my life.
My physiology in life is and as long as I can remember to be has been "Treat others as you would be treated" and I am a true believer that what goes around comes around.
I do believe when one attacks another or sins in anyway it will come to bite them in the butt or in the end they will have to answer to their maker.
Good luck to you and I am so sorry there are closed minded people out there that feel the need to attack others.
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
15 Dec 08
Hi tea! Thanks so much for you comments. Your philosophy is a good one and I follow that one as well as best I can. It does seem that rudeness comes back to a person. I've been very glad that it hasn't happened again since. Hopefully these were just coincidental isolated incidents.
1 person likes this
@teapotmommommerced (10359)
• United States
23 Dec 08
I agree with you my friend and have a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays which ever you celebrate.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
2 Dec 08
Hi craftcatcher, Thank you for this very interesting discussion. It is good to meet someone such as you who refuses to judge others. I try to respect all people and their beliefs but I know there have been times when I haven't done that. I was raised in the Christian faith and know the Bible much better than any of the other Holy Books, but my main focus for many years now, have been the teachings of Jesus Christ himself. I was reminded yesterday, after a post here about Christians getting away from the teachings of Christ, that Jesus also said, "let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone", so I guess I've been given a taste of my own medicine. There are times though when people just get angry because you don't agree with them, and that seems to be what's happening with you. I totally agree with you that we should all be respectful. Blessings.
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
2 Dec 08
Hi Pose! In fact it was a defensive and sarcastic remark I made to someone that triggered my discussion. I didn't like the fact that I felt the need to defend myself and that I felt the need to respond with sarcasm. So I decided enough was enough. We live and learn.
"let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone". One of my all time favorite quotes! Good reminder that nobody's perfect.
@moonlitmagikchild (22181)
• United States
3 Dec 08
i try to not challenge peoples religion unless they start it out like asking about something legitimate or are blatantly being ignorant and claiming things that arent possible or even with what they are claiming..
if some one has a discussion based on discussing something or pros and cons on religion i do those and TRY to keep my temper in check for stupid people although im not good at that haha.. im too feisty for my own good..
i do get defensive over my beliefs and i have gotten into it bad but mostly its been because the other person asks or states something then doesnt even want to have an open mind which to me if you are going to discuss anything here you need to have one.. im sure with my inquisitive mind people probably think i try to start things on here religion wise but i honestly try to put out discussions that any one can offer what they think and if they defend then at least do it with a good argument (no because i say so or because i read it) but i have found myself avoiding a ton of the things posted on here recently just because they are just too easy to get upset with..
i feel challenged in real life DAILY.. my family and any one from my past pretty much have an issue with it and thats prob why i am so use to going into debate mode that and im a born debater on anything lol.. but yeah if anything the internet is where i get challenged the least.. i could see how you could have probs because you DONT put yourself in a slot of what religion and to some people thats as bad as being whatever it is they dont like because they dont know what to think lol
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
3 Dec 08
Hi moon! Yep, that is most of my difficulty in discussions, a lot of people don't know what to think of me! I'm not willing to pigeon hole myself. The closest I get to it is calling myself a Pantheist. But that's similar to being called a Pagan, it can cover a whole lot of ground.
Unfortunately many religions doesn't allow for logical or empirical thinking and that's the only way I know how to think. It doesn't stop me from understanding that alot of people rely on faith which has little to do with logic. My way works best for me and their way works best for them. It shouldn't be a problem, but so often is.
1 person likes this
@moonlitmagikchild (22181)
• United States
4 Dec 08
whats funny is i like to learn about different religions and even christianity even though i went through the whole cult type setting and have a lot of ptsd because of it but its like no one can just talk about religion calmly and people usually turn into idiots or jerks getting all defensive instead of just discussing it open minded and that pisses me off and makes me have to make sure i have my mouth in check lol.. i get the annoying opinionated diarrhea of the mouth sometimes when people act stupid or ignorant..
1 person likes this
@tamarafireheart (15384)
•
2 Dec 08
Hi craftcatcher,
That was great, you got gumtion girl, yes I agree with you, if they like it tough! I am a pagan myself and thank goodness no one has been rude to me yet. The best way is just ignore them.
Tamara
1 person likes this
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
2 Dec 08
Hi Tamara! I hope you won't have to deal with such rude behavior but you have the right attitude to handle it with dignity if it ever comes up. Thanks very much for your comment, I appreciate it.
Thanks very much for your comment, I appreciate it.
@flowerchilde (12529)
• United States
2 Dec 08
I hear just what you're saying! Unfortunately it seems that all too often when the topic comes up, what we see and most often gets displayed is "reactions".. All sides of issues, debates and philosophies are stereotyped and their beliefs and opinions are belittled by someone or another it seems and now instead of interesting and friendly dialog, what we see is defensive offense!
- I study a lot too, have experienced a lot and do a lot of deep thinking.. yet it seems like most folks figure I believe as I do because I need a crutch and certainly I don't do any thinking at all. Yet, sometimes I think the biggest reason this happens (from some, of all sides and ideas) is perhaps because condescension or name calling is somehow easier than producing solid points or 'arguments'. I guess mostly I see it as you too have said, as a part of human nature.. and I think all groups have their more obnoxious folks, who unfortunately seem to set the pace in all this. I try not to react and respond in anything resembling like manner! I'm also trying to see behind other's reactions! And not be tempted to take it personally when someone seems to belittle or underestimate the set of ideas I lean toward.. [I'm afraid I don't agree 100% with any of the philosophies, which may not always make me very popular. I'm just too good at agreeing and disagreeing with 'both' sides of a debate!]
- I also try to remember to reread a post if it 'offends' me.. I think sometimes we humans can read things the wrong way.. And I also like to reread my posts and tame them down a little if need be. I actually think folks at mylot are much more courteous than many other places, as I think because it pays a little, we're more inclined to be on good behavior. I actually quit discussing for awhile, things got so virulent! (In other places.) Good grief! I can't imagine, really, why it gets that way! Oh yes.. human nature!
]
- I also try to remember to reread a post if it 'offends' me.. I think sometimes we humans can read things the wrong way.. And I also like to reread my posts and tame them down a little if need be. I actually think folks at mylot are much more courteous than many other places, as I think because it pays a little, we're more inclined to be on good behavior. I actually quit discussing for awhile, things got so virulent! (In other places.) Good grief! I can't imagine, really, why it gets that way! Oh yes.. human nature! @craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
2 Dec 08
A lot of my posts are read the wrong way! I tend to be a "to the point" type with a sarcastic sense of humor. Not a good combination in writing. Without voice or facial expressions it's sometimes difficult to tell what someone's intentions are. Others make no bones about their stance how they feel about other's. Both are interesting to read from a human nature and sometimes cultural perspective. Occasionally it gets a little too intense for me too and I try to stay out of those, sometimes I try to be the voice of reason... which rarely works! I think I'd rather see them get there anger out of their system here online than do something silly in person.
I'm still glad that people are discussing their perspectives here on myLot. Keep it in their minds and they'll eventually get used to hearing a variety of philosophies. Knowledge and familiarity eventually leads to tolerance. Thanks for you views flowerchilde!
I think I'd rather see them get there anger out of their system here online than do something silly in person.
I'm still glad that people are discussing their perspectives here on myLot. Keep it in their minds and they'll eventually get used to hearing a variety of philosophies. Knowledge and familiarity eventually leads to tolerance. Thanks for you views flowerchilde!
@eaforeman6 (8979)
• United States
28 Jan 09
How dare someone speak that way to you! Its obvious that you have a great deal of intellegence and have sought out information . You have studied and researched and are stating that you have an open mind. There is no reason for anyone to be rude about it, there will always be different beliefs, but good manners should be the same. I am really sorry that you had that experience. You strike me as a strong sprirtualy wise intellect, which is to be appreciated. I always enjoy your posts and your honesty!@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
29 Jan 09
Thank you! I appreciate that very much. I have always enjoyed reading your discussions and posts as well. You have a kind and understanding heart without compromising your honesty. That is a very rare gift.
@miamilady (4910)
• United States
27 Jan 09
No. I don't think it's okay for people to be insulting or rude in the name of their religion. I think people who do that are an embarassment to their respective religion.
As far as the attempted conversions, I know that some religions are taught that it is their duty to "spread the gospel", "spread the word of God", "tell everyone about Jesus" and to try to "save" their fellow man.
I can live with that. I think there is a point where they go to far, but I don't have a problem bringing it up and sharing their beliefs as long as they can back off when asked to do so.
It's the onces who won't back off that I would have a problem with. Fortunately, I have never encountered someone who was that pushy with me.
I think something about my personality creates this invisible barrier and people just don't cross a certain line with me. lol
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
28 Jan 09
Thanks for responding miamilady! We have a similar viewpoint on this. I can take a lot but I don't take pushy. Thank goodness it hasn't happened again since.
1 person likes this
@littleowl (7157)
•
19 Dec 08
Hi Craftcatcher..that is a great shame that people have been that way to you, being a Pagan I too have been insulted and looked upon as 'evil', but never do I or would I judge anyone for their beleifs, it is up to each individual how they wish to believe, I have never preached to anyone about my faith and just tell people who try to 'convert' me to their belief politely that I have my own faith and would prefer them not to preach to me of their own. People should respect others and their beliefs and in the name of 'Religion' shouldn't condemn, judge or be rude to others who don't agree with them..hugs littleowl
