Creationism: Indoctrination or Ignorance

I think you are seeing the religious right rearing its ugly head. In recent years politicians have catered to the demands of religious fanatics who would have us return to the dark ages. It flies in the face of the concept of democracy but I think there is a deeper, more sinister goal outside of simply getting votes. If the masses return to a reliance on religion they will be prevented from using knowledge to benefit their own lives. Let's face it. A secular education lends itself to greater tolerance along with greater expectations from life itself. If most people submit to religious doctrine, they will be prevented from seeking more rights based on human needs. They will be more concerned with fulfilling religious doctrine which ENCOURAGES submission. All 3 of the reasons you cited are at work. It is sad and most people are afraid to think about the implications, so the degradation of the quality of life in the USA continues. Good Topic!

Interesting topic. A friend of mine sent me an article recently about the state of Kansas allowing creationism to be taught again in the public schools. I think the fundamentalist Christians are a powerful force in the bible belt of the United states. Certainly the religious TV preachers are a force to be reconed with, but I don't think there is a concerted effort by influential elites to have the masses remain ignorant. There are so many organizations that want to improve the school systems, so many organizations that promote early learning and greater achievements in schools.

In my opinion it is the rise of psuedo scientists who pander to the believe of religious fundamentalist and try to collect and create arguments against evolutionary theory without considering the whole body of evidence. Just because there are still questions and gaps in evoutionary theory and the ascent of man in particular it is no way justified to ignore all the evidence that is in fact and proves to the majority of scientists and informed laymen that evolution is indeed factual even with it's holes.

I really can't see what does this has to do with being rich, democratic, andvanced, or even ignorant. It's also funny because the USA was built on religious bases, so there's no surprise at all to see many people who are still religious and many of them don't believe in evolution. Even in Britain, there are many creationists. And since you haven't met any American who believe in creation, it doesn't mean that they aren't there. As for your claim that those who believe in creation are ignorant, it's pretty absurd. Most of them are familiar with the theory of evolution, but they don't believe it. The same as you don't believe in the theory of creation. Finally, being more recent doesn't make a theory better. I know you'll try to say that evolution is a fact, but to save your time, I am familiar with all the so called evidence of evolution, but I see them not convincing. And believe me, it's not because of my faith, because I see no contradiction between them both.

I am a christian living in America and most definatly do not concider myself ignorant !i know of all the theories prevalent in none believers the fact is I ""choose"" to believe in an intelegent designer I feel it equally as ignorant for persons to believe this wonderfull earth and the universe itself just happened by accident or from a so called big bang since everything has cause and effect i would ask what made the bang??as for the idea of a literal 7 days creation there is not a problem there for my scripture aldso tells me that to the Lord a day is as a thousand years so this also causes me no problems (2Pet.3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

I think it's a combination of an abysmal public education system mixed with intentional ignorance on the part of religious groups. Unfortunately, we have a lot of people throwing the word "theory" around without having any idea what the word actually means. It's also unfortunate that we have so many people who think that mere speculation is the same as a valid scientific theory based on evidence. On top of that, many who argue for creationism tend to attack ideas that scientists either no longer hod or never held, or they'll take scientific ideas completely out of context in order to "disprove" them. We know how things as complex as eyes evolve through natural selection. We recently discovered how planets are formed. The gaps in scientific knowledge are closing rapidly, yet many want to hang on to just inserting god into the remaining gaps by default.

Here I am sticking my neck out but I do believe in Intelligent Design. I believe in God and in a creation of the Universe. The DNA sequencing in a single individual would fill a room full of file cabinets and there are only four letters used in the sequence. Imagine how intricate that is and how perfect it is. Somehow, I just cannot see how this was an accident that just sort of happened out of a lake of sludge.

Fanatical religious TV stations? Where? Why should creationism theories be any less accepted than evolutionary theories? I think intelligent design is more acceptable to scientists than macroevolution, and the two don't clash necessarily. That's a pretty backhanded insult btw...

You make several great points. But who's to say that creationism and evolution can't go hand-in-hand? I believe in a God, and I'm rational and scientific minded. The fact is, though, is that both ornganized religion and basic human morality are on shaky grounds right now, and regardless of who gets complete control, society is in trouble when either the theocrats or the secularists get complete control.

You know what? I think we spent too much time beating around the bush and discussing tangential topics. Why don't we get to the cold hard facts? leavert, Cerium, would you please write down for us a quick summary of the Scientific Creationism view you defend? What are the main lines of evidence in favor of it? What is your concept of who the Intelligent Designer might be? In what ways could this theory be falsified*? What distinct predictions does this theory make? Any or all answers to these questions would be GREATLY appreciated, and would move this discussion forward in leaps and bounds. jricbt had already challenged leavert with some of these questions in another discussion, but to no answer so far. * (For readers not familiarized with the term, "falsifiability" is a requirement for any scientific theory: if a theory can't be proven false by any method, then it's useless as a scientific theory.)

I'd like to chime in on this discussion, but aiguy and SageMother have basically nailed it so well that I'm left with little to say. The vast majority of creationists and evolution deniers are motivated by religion, there's no two ways about it. Most proudly admit it, some are coy about it and try to disguise their true beliefs. But luckily it is a somewhat localized movement. One of the greatest reasons for this to strive in the USA is something that is usually a virtue of the nation, but in this case it becomes a burden: the extreme value placed upon fairness and democracy. That is easily - and often - subverted by those creationists who try to pass themselves as scientific and non-religious, saying that students "should be taught both sides of the debate". The only problem is, there is _NO_ serious scientific debate over whether evolution happens or not; the only debate and ongoing research is about the details of _how_ evolution takes place. This is also doubly fallacious in the following way: if one claims that all sides of an issue should be taught, regardless of its scientific validity, then ALL Creationist Myths of ALL religions should be equally taught in the classroom; all for the sake of fairness, of course.

With all respect to believers and good Christians, Muslims, Judes. It is good for you if the religion gives you the peace of mind and I will never want to effend anyone. In my opinion however the creationizm is an opium for people who do not have desire to understand the newest development in science. The opium makes you to feel safe in your small buble of certainties without reasoning. This is the reason why so many people are happy to choose the theory that claims that we are extrimly special and can't be compared with other animals. It is a comfortable position and easy to accept as it does not force us to make efford to understand the world around us. This is only my opinion on the subject and majority of my friends are Christians. However they are open to science and somehow they menage to believe in supernatural god without closing their eyes on science.

I strongly believe in our creator... the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his benevolent noodles.

Personally i think that it has more to do with a famine of choice when it comes to progressive belief. Where are the causes that fire the imagination and promote enlightenment? Socialism burnt up almost immediately in the horrors of the Gulag, even those who rejected that doctrinal creed were forced to spend the best part of a century apologising for a perversion of a belief. The hope that life could get better seems to have eitehr faded from realistic possibility or been taken out of the hands of ordinary people. Bill Gates Foundation doing wonderful work i am sure, but what on earth has that got to do with anyone not in the billionaires club. People need hope to live life, and in the absense of any real programme that offers something better then we are left with "medieval views" and shopping. It's all a bit depressing really

Let me ask you this: What is more probable - (1) that the universe is the product of an intelligent mind who pre-exists time and space and is beyond our ability to fully comprehend - or (2) that the universe, with all its matter and energy and space, just popped into existence one day out of nothing, out of no substance, for no reason, and has no ultimate destiny other than to float along. I happen to think belief in #2 is absurd and superficial.

well i really feel sad for such gr8 nations that they lack the craetivity in them...very sorry for these nations....well the fact that they r so developed is only because they r rich in resources and they have the capital to hire the brains of the world...and they never encouraged thier people to take initiative in some research work rather they fund the other countries for their own development...this i think is a mismanagement of the human resources.

I have been following this discussion, as I intend myself to start a series of papers rebutting the creationist claims and answering their misinformed questions. I don't have much to add right now, except that I would like to thank Zmugzy for starting a courageous discussion that will make him very popular among the god-freaks who troll myLot. I can't wait to see what your star rating will be like, mate! ;) And let's finish with a nice Richard Dawkins quote: "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world." May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you with His Noodly Appendage. ;)

No.I don't think it has anything to do with our present. It has to do with our past. Remember most of the first settlers in North America were looking for religious freedom. And with the separation of Church and State, thank G-d for it, Americans are free to believe in anything they want.It wouldn't matter if we made all the schools better, used more money for scientific research, or there was no poor North Americans, there would still be some people who would believe in the story of Eden instead evolution.

Fargale, I left some more explicit instructions to help you find the Big Bang theory in Wikipedia on page 1. Also did you get the questions I left regarding evolution? Anyways back to the impartial decision you said Judge Jones made at the Dover trial. Headlines: Judge Jones Took Credit for ACLU Writings 12/12/2006 ...Now it turns out that 90.9% of his 6,004-word opinion about whether intelligent design is science was lifted "virtually verbatim" from ACLU Documents. A new study released today in "Evolution News" details the comparison and discusses its implications. The entire study can be downloaded from "Uncommon Decent". "The finding that most of Judge Jones' analysis of was apparently not the product of his own deliberative activity seriously undercutting the credibility of Judge Jones' examination of the scientific validity of intelligent design..." - "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive" QUOTE OF THE DAY: - "Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts." (Francis Crick) [Crick received a Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA]

Actually my brother science is nothing more than a empirical form of Quran ul Karim. Allah almighty loves all his creation and Thy never be comfort see anyone of us in pain or miseries. He sent all his prophets and messenger to humanity to show right path. And when ever the humanity gone astray there was a messenger to help mankind. So now when ever the human beings would try or alter the course of nature or Allah must plunge in trouble.So i will suggest you to study Quran uk karim to be clear with you and your creation cause.Thanks